CommerceAI

Ian Jindal (00:01.23)
Well, hello and welcome to the studio. We are here in the commerce AI world chatting to Stephen Dewar, who, spoiler alert, is one of our speakers at the upcoming commerce AI event. But more of that later and more of Stephen now. So Stephen, welcome for joining me in the studio.

Stephen Dewar (00:23.093)
Thank you for having me, I'm really looking forward to it.

Ian Jindal (00:25.262)
Good. So, Stephen, we know the thumbnails because it said that on the cover. Marketing director at Black Circles. So just bring us up to speed. Tell us a bit about Black Circles. Fantastic brand name, by the way. And also a bit about your role in the business.

Stephen Dewar (00:44.193)
Absolutely. yeah, Black Circles, as you said, great brand name because it's all themed around making what is quite a complex purchase, extremely simple. Black Circles was founded in 2001 and since 2015 we have been part of the Michelin Group. we were fully acquired by Michelin back in 2015, but we operate with full autonomy from them.

Ian Jindal (01:02.914)
Ian Jindal (01:10.114)
Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dewar (01:10.117)
And for those that don't know, Black Circles is the leading online tire retailer. You simply go online, put in your registration, and we help guide customers to find the right tires for them. It's usually quite a stressful purchase, so we try to make the journey as simple and as people focused as humanly possible. My role within the company, I am director of marketing and in the last few years, leading our AI transformation journey.

and that way I wear a few hats. I have full responsibility for marketing efforts. That's everything from our paid media to our own media to ultimately more and more how we become cited in LLMs and our entire brand presence. And in the last couple of years, it's definitely been a broadening of scope, let's say, as the marketing function has such a deep

rooted connection to the customer and customer data. We saw the impact AI was going to have not just on our industry, but the way in which people shop and the way in which people buy. So my job has been ensuring that we bring AI to all the departments within our business, along with the right customer journey in a safe and ethical way.

Ian Jindal (02:32.138)
Good. So let's maybe unpick some of those bit by bit. There's so much there in what you've said. I'm going to come back later to your own path towards with and through AI. But let's just stick with the business at the moment because as on the one hand a digital business in that, you know, people find you interact with you online.

Stephen Dewar (02:36.278)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (02:59.874)
be it a very physical business in that those tires weigh a ton, they don't move themselves, they don't fit themselves. So you've got this kind of ethereal, light-footed digital domain with a very grunty, difficult operational side. Could you just help us understand where you first started seeing the impacts of AI, either from your customer or your operations? And the reason I'm asking you to be specific is that

you know, amongst the keyboard warriors, the head office folk, we tend to over emphasize trends because they hit us and that's our job to look at them. Whereas, you know, sometimes I'm talking to customers or friends and they're not running six different AIs and talking to them, building, you know, avatars and mini apps. They're still Googling. They're still talking to their mates. So just help me understand how in your business,

Stephen Dewar (03:52.235)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (03:59.36)
you started seeing AI knocking on the door or through the customer.

Stephen Dewar (04:05.377)
So I'll take it back. The best example of this was I was sitting in a meeting about two years ago. And I still remember this. A member of our business was presenting something. And they had really quite detailed notes. And it was very well structured. We were saying, this is a phenomenal, phenomenal bit of work. This is fantastic. And they're like, yeah, I used this AI tool. And we went, right, that's.

That's concerning. So obviously we knew of ChatGPT and certain specialist people in the business had been experimenting with it. But that was the moment where we really realized that AI was going to land not just with our customers, but with our employees, our stakeholders, our partners. And we could let the world just run away with itself, or we could actually go, right, we're going to lean into this and do it properly. From a customer perspective,

We saw that happening over the last couple of years where, as you say, tires are not a particularly fun purchase that anyone wants to make. And it's also something that's stressful. It requires a lot of information. You don't always have all the right information. You don't know what size you need. We started to see changing behavior in customers appearing more informed, more aware of what they needed. Whereas

Prior to that, we possibly wouldn't have seen customers being that well up to date with what they actually needed.

Ian Jindal (05:35.288)
But how did you see that? Because I'd always admired the enter your registration and we'll tell you your tyres routine. as previous listeners of our many podcasts would know, I'm a very happy Volvo driver and proud of it. But when you enter the registration, my wheels weren't standard.

Stephen Dewar (05:45.473)
Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dewar (06:01.077)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (06:02.062)
Actually, that makes you sound like they're low profile racer tires on a Volvo, but they were just a specific size. And being able to get to that with confidence and know I was ordering the right tires was something that, if you like, is the opposite of an LLM hallucinating and saying that, you know, handsome Volvo owners like you typically would have this tire and you end up buying

Stephen Dewar (06:16.065)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (06:30.144)
an imagined or incorrect one. So you were already structured with exemplary data and if you like a knowledge process that was optimized. But yet on top of that, you say the customer somehow better briefed. Just help me understand that shift of expertise.

Stephen Dewar (06:48.321)
It's a great question. And I think it goes back to ultimately the core layer of everyone in the world is throwing AI at absolutely everything. I saw a toaster the other day that had AI in it. A toaster does not need AI, but that doesn't mean it's not interesting. However, for us, we've always been a customer focused business in a very deep way. And I know all businesses say this, but we spend so much time listening to what customers are saying, that data profile of

how they were behaving on the website. We centralized all of that by working with a team at Google Cloud, pulled it all together, and it gives a greater understanding that actually customers were starting to almost create their own version of our journey. They were going deeper into product pages, brand pages, pages that ultimately they probably wouldn't have needed beforehand because that level of research we were providing on our aggregated results.

Ian Jindal (07:32.622)
Hmm.

Stephen Dewar (07:45.151)
And then at the point where they were getting into this deeper point, we were going, why, why are they going there? So once we could understand, we could track the whole journey back and go, there's, points here that correlate to AI becoming more accepted. start, we built our own citation tracker to understand where we were appearing. And it started to form this story that allowed us to go, customers are going through a research journey without getting to the website, which

Ian Jindal (07:50.871)
Yes.

Ian Jindal (08:04.65)
Stephen Dewar (08:14.355)
In truth, it makes absolute sense. was discussing this with someone the other day and in years to come when we explain to our grandkids how we use the internet, they're going to think we're mad. We pulled a little glass box out of our pocket and we tapped it with our finger until an empty box appeared and we clicked through links and tried to trust what we saw. AI is just the next logical step in how people interact. So it's not surprising that they're starting to move that way.

Ian Jindal (08:22.99)
Mmm.

Ian Jindal (08:29.463)
Yeah

Ian Jindal (08:35.298)
Yeah.

Ian Jindal (08:42.104)
But there's always a knowledge map. So I'm old enough to remember librarian style and logic based searching, know, where the, well, even before web based search engines, but you know, internet ones and, you know, being a wizard searcher was for a while a skill. But when you look now at the customer who's maybe having conversations about the tires that she wants to buy next.

Are you finding that your decade and a half of optimizing the key attributes on your product description page, are you finding the customer is building off that and you're thinking, thank God we're a great investment and expertise, or are they talking about and basing a decision on things that maybe you hadn't thought about or weren't part of that conversation before? What's the actual change other than moving it closer to the customer?

Stephen Dewar (09:41.025)
The first thing we did actually was we didn't know the answer to that. And we were quite open and honest with ourselves because we could see from Google advertising data or keyword research or anything to do with SEO that the way in which people were searching was changing. It was going from generic words of buy tires to what are the best tires for my Volvo as an example. With that, were then, we launched our own onsite.

agent to help kind of guide people through that journey. Now there's two points of that one. It was a great customer experience. It helped guide people through as if they were standing talking to someone that shot. But what I actually did was let us understand what and how people were interacting with agents at that point. And then from there we could build content out on our website that was then seeded back. So it was kind of understanding that the internet has been built around forcing people to

search in a certain way, but it's the most unnatural way possible. The most natural way is like you and I are doing. You would ask me a question, you wouldn't say what car drive? So it's this kind of thing.

Ian Jindal (10:52.024)
Yeah, interesting. And let's move on then to what you're offering the customer because in a way, we could just sit back, let the customer's AI interact with our data, come to their own decision and come to us to buy what they need. But you mentioned you produced an interactive system for them. Are you developing any...

product, services, experiences with your own AI that you're offering to the customers? Or are you focused on facing into what the customers coming to you with tooled up already?

Stephen Dewar (11:34.657)
I would say we take, I've heard it called a hybrid approach or a cyborg approach at points. Yeah, it does. It sounds very fancy. From our perspective, are tires are one of those products that fall into that category of your money, your life. They're usually not cheap. And also if you get them wrong, they can cause some serious issues to people's lives. So we had to be 100 % certain that the products in which we were showing to customers would A,

Ian Jindal (11:39.554)
That sounds good doesn't it? Hi, cyborg!

Stephen Dewar (12:04.629)
be suitable for them, B, keep them safe on the road, and C, also be accessible for them. So we still have a mix where we have some product merchandising is run by our own internal tools, but then also we have a team of specialists who are constantly reviewing that and also making manual human-based changes because they know as specialists, that's the best possible product for that customer in that place and time.

And doing that has helped us improve conversion of the website and drive greater customer satisfaction. When we take it all back to that point, everything again always comes back to what customers are telling us. We need to always listen to customers and that's why our business has a net promoter score of 80 at the moment.

Ian Jindal (12:51.534)
Nice. What does listening to customers mean? Because, I mean, the last time I bought tyres was last summer. And I am that boring that as we were driving along a beautiful French motorway, I turned off the stereo, made everyone shut up in the car and listen to see whether they could also appreciate the three decibel reduction in noise from the tyres.

Stephen Dewar (12:55.713)
you

Ian Jindal (13:21.006)
As I then bored them about the silica content and the fact I was getting about 4 % better fuel economy as a result of the tyres, you know, lots of complaints, music went back on, but I was a happy man for that whole journey. but I don't see how you could measure that satisfaction unless and until I come back to you in about 10,000 miles for another or similar pair, set of tyres. So,

Stephen Dewar (13:34.495)
Yeah.

Ian Jindal (13:50.264)
How are you measuring that satisfaction? Are there any different measures now that AI is prevalent or is it back to the old repeat customer and direct feedback?

Stephen Dewar (14:01.459)
It's a combination of a few things. So one, we get direct feedback from customers on a wide variety of different topics. Why they bought the product they did, why did they buy from Black Circles, how did they find Black Circles? But we are also very lucky that under the same umbrella as part of the Michelin Group, we have a sister company called Driver Reviews. So Driver Reviews has over half a million, sorry, half a billion.

customer, half a million customer reviews of tires across all categories and they're captured over a length of time. That data is so valuable because it allows us to understand truthfully things like that, because some customers will genuinely go, this tire is louder than the one I had before for my Tesla or these tires last way longer than I expected them to. So I think.

Ian Jindal (14:53.153)
Hmm.

Stephen Dewar (14:57.429)
The short answer to that question is there are so many various data points in which we connect with the customer and focus on what their needs are that we use that to inform our decision making. And when you add a layer of AI to help digest, analyze, drive insight instead of just seeing data, that's where we really set ourselves apart.

Ian Jindal (15:05.837)
Yeah.

Ian Jindal (15:18.286)
Now, we touched on your team earlier on and there seems to be two tracks. On the one hand, you've got your own staff adopting AI for their own work, but also you say, still have specialists implying that there's a point where the human knows better or they may be AI empowered to know better.

Let's think about how AI internally, behind the scenes, is being adopted in the business. And then we'll a little chat about maybe the IT aspects of it. from your perspective in business operations, what's been the impact of the AI adoptions?

Stephen Dewar (16:06.283)
The AI adoption, I'll take it back to the very, very start. When we first saw and aligned as an executive team at Black Circles that AI was going to have an impact on our business, whether we were for it or against it, it was going to happen. We actually sat down before we did anything at all and defined a policy of how Black Circles would adopt artificial intelligence. And it ultimately fell into three pillars. It was people, privacy, and performance.

Ian Jindal (16:28.813)
Hmm.

Ian Jindal (16:35.438)
Ooh.

Stephen Dewar (16:35.691)
First and foremost, first and foremost, everything we did had to be for the betterment of people. We weren't out there trying to go, what tools can we get so we can lay a bunch of staff on? We were saying, what tools can we get to give people better job satisfaction, let them do more on the day to day, make their day to day better. Privacy, we ultimately made the call that we didn't want any personal identifiable data anywhere near any of our AI systems. So we kept it nice and clean so that any

potential risk of data leakage or anything was limited. That also meant that we weren't just going out and giving the entire company access to chat GPT. That made things a lot safer. And then performance, it goes back to the toaster conversation. We didn't want to throw AI at things for the sake of novelty. We wanted to go, will this make a difference to how people work, how we deliver for customers, how we make a difference in what we do on a day-to-day basis? And that allowed us to do it. From there,

various projects spotted out. AI is being used across all of our company and all departments in one way or another. What we ultimately did was we built our own internal, call it an internal home for different modules. And we called it Nexus because it was a kind of meeting point of everything. Thank you. And it was the meeting point of everything. But what we want to do is ensure that everyone in the company had

Ian Jindal (17:52.504)
great name.

Stephen Dewar (18:02.215)
access to and the ability to use AI without us putting any data at risk or any security issues at risk. So it's a self-contained module with about 30 to 40 individual AI agents that the teams can use, whether that's rewriting emails or helping them conduct research or analyze legal contracts or conduct financial analysis or

We ultimately wanted to democratize intelligence when it came to AI. So, roll it.

Ian Jindal (18:33.772)
And how does that happen in practical terms? I turn up as a motivated, super happy employee, arrive at my desk, fire up my screen of choice. Do I go into Nexus and do all my work there, like as a grown-up salesperson, or do I call upon the modules? How do I access this expertise?

Stephen Dewar (18:56.565)
Very simply, is browser based and sits behind all of our normal security and firewalls if you're accessing your email. You go into the website, you log in through your normal login details, and then when you need to use a module, it's there and available to you 24-7.

Ian Jindal (19:03.555)
Hmm.

Ian Jindal (19:14.978)
Very interesting. And then with those modules, how do you make sure they don't get bit rot or wander off piste over time? What's the investment then in calibration, QA, just making sure that they are always yours and haven't decayed in any way?

Stephen Dewar (19:36.736)
Yeah, I think the best thing for us is that we can took it back to people. People can provide direct feedback on each individual module telling us whether they're happy or not happy with the outputs. There is direct feedback within the tool itself to be able to actually provide more detailed. I wish it could do this or I wish we had a module that did this. And then because we do everything in house, we then build out any new modules in a very simple way.

The next step for us is actually creating a module builder that will be more allowing people to go instead of having to rely on AI or IT building these modules out for you. You'll have the ability to do it yourself in a drag and drop format.

Ian Jindal (20:24.878)
That's interesting though that you mentioned IT just now because we have so far hardly mentioned our beloved technology colleagues. So I mentioned at the top of the recording that you're marketing director and that was part fact, but also that we're talking about AI from very much a business customer perspective. So AI typically

Stephen Dewar (20:36.385)
Mm-hmm.

Stephen Dewar (20:51.577)
Uh-huh.

Ian Jindal (20:53.41)
might have been expected to be within the remit of the IT director, CIO, et cetera, et cetera. So what's the interface or conversations between you and the technology colleagues in your business? Is it something that is beyond technology powered by them, helped by them? How does that fit together?

Stephen Dewar (21:15.773)
It's a great question. think the open and honest answer is that AI sitting within the marketing function at the moment is not some sort of departmental, let's control everything. think it's more, we work very, very closely on a day-to-day basis with the technology team and our business intelligence team to share concepts, share ideas.

where we can only go so far on projects they support when they need support from us, we support them. It's a very symbiotic relationship. Our processes for new projects and things go through a development process. That's no longer two separate cues as such. People will come to this development meeting, present something they want to do for the business and then...

Afterwards myself, the director of technology, our CEO, we will sit down and say, right, is this something that needs AI? If it is, the AI team will build it. If it's something that doesn't, then it will go to IT. Is it something that's somewhere in the middle? Brilliant. We'll collaborate and work together. I think the biggest thing for us is truthfully and personally, don't really care where AI sits in a business. It's actually as long as people have the right approach to it and have the right access to it.

and it's something that's being adopted by everyone, opposed to it sits in a silo over here. AI is not a new performance channel or some new just coding tool. It's a change. It's a paradigm shift in society more than anything else.

Ian Jindal (22:50.85)
It's interesting that because we were chatting the other day about entering a post digital or post e-commerce age in that whenever something is either new or limited or precious we tend to allocate someone to it who has to lead his adoption but we don't have a director of using the telephone or a chief of A4 paper standards because

Stephen Dewar (23:09.879)
huh.

Stephen Dewar (23:19.521)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (23:19.928)
These are now totally embedded and integrated. So the speed at which AI has become not a technology thing, but an everybody thing is quite extraordinary.

Stephen Dewar (23:31.554)
Oh, it's unbelievable. think someone quoted recently and I was saying that the agricultural age took 2000 years, the industrial age took 100, the internet age took 10, and I think the AI age took about 40 minutes. So it's kind of, it's a huge, huge change. think businesses that communicate openly and transparently with each other at a very senior level so that that is fed down through the company.

Ian Jindal (23:46.668)
Yeah.

Stephen Dewar (24:00.48)
that's where the success will come from instead of we should own this or they should own this. It's something that's just going to change how we work in our day-to-day lives.

Ian Jindal (24:09.452)
Yeah. OK, so let's talk about you a little bit and skills. So the benefit of a podcast is that in our listeners' they can at least imagine us as both being young and handsome. But I think it's fair to say neither of us are pushing Gen Z into Gen Alpha. But if we're talking to younger people...

Stephen Dewar (24:31.544)
And no.

Ian Jindal (24:36.63)
especially those maybe coming out of university or thinking, you know, I've just spent three years studying geography with Python coding. But yet AI is changing their worlds so, so quickly. What are your thoughts on the skills, the capabilities, the aptitudes needed by either people entering the workforce now or by

Stephen Dewar (24:43.99)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (25:04.982)
those people in your business who are maybe in their first line management roles. So what's the new sort of mental stack that's needed, if you like, in order to succeed in business?

Stephen Dewar (25:13.697)
That's a great, that's a great question.

My honest belief is that there are two skills that regardless of industry, sector, country, geography, whatever, are absolutely essential for anyone in business and an AI age. The first one is communication. Truthfully, the ability to communicate, whether that be with people, whether that be with AI agents, whether that be communicating with your own personal thoughts, that is going to be the most important.

important skill people have because while AI tools might reach a stage where they can pick up the heavy lifting of the vast majority of things, being able to actually guide them to what you need them to do is still going to be inherently important to what success is driven by. The other side of that is truthfully critical thinking. There is that huge risk that as AI becomes more and more and more capable and I'm not

going to go down the path of talking about AGI, but as we start to get into that bit where it can do more and more and more and more, how do we ensure that our people are still being able to look at situations objectively and offer a human opinion that takes into account the feelings, emotions, and needs of the people who are going to be impacted by it? So if you were to say two things, communication skills and critical thinking skills.

Ian Jindal (26:35.086)
Hmm.

Ian Jindal (26:43.886)
So, I mean, I love that. I couldn't agree more. But let's maybe now flip the mirror and hold it up to the board. So we're recruiting, you know, this wonderful new generations of talent with critical thinking and communication skills. Literally every board member has that somewhere buried on their CV about how they're exemplary at those, but often more, you know,

seen in the claim than in the delivery. So when you're thinking both from an operating board perspective and from communicating with non-execs, key stakeholders, what do you think the requirements are for a successful board member to lead and extract value in this AI age?

Stephen Dewar (27:37.298)
That is the question at the moment, isn't it? And I think if we take the communication side, it's one of the biggest things. Communication is only possible when you listen. And ultimately being able to step back and say the world is changing. This is the Netflix and blockbuster situation again. This is the internet first coming around. Being able to look at the world objectively, listen to the people around you and understand that

We may not have all the answers, but as a board member or a senior executive, your job is not to have all the answers. It's to ensure that the people in the day-to-day business have the tools, the skills, and the knowledge to help make those decisions and drive the business forward. So truthfully, would say communicating with other people, not just in your industry, not just in your sector, spending a lot of time.

Going to events like the RetardX stuff and actually spending time with people to hear different perspectives beyond your own periphery is the most important thing that they could be doing.

Ian Jindal (28:38.146)
Hmm. That's really good. And what about getting hands on with AI? mean, I was talking to the today and the European GM of Shopify and she absolutely shocked me because of a marketing background, broad MBA. But she was saying that everybody on her team now uses Claude and she expects to spend

an hour a day, playing, learning, interacting, building mini apps, very much a marketing sales operation. So there's no reduction in targets or output, but she's saying we have to be using the tools that are A, building our business and B, building our partners' businesses. So she had a very practical approach, which was get hands on.

Stephen Dewar (29:29.59)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Jindal (29:35.726)
It's not for everybody, but how is your leadership team sort of immersing themselves adequately and appropriately in the many worlds of AI?

Stephen Dewar (29:48.514)
We are very fortunate as a leadership team. work very, very closely together as a group and we have really strong leadership from our CEO. We are all encouraged to go and for all intents and play. We've created safe environments that people can go and test and learn and really experiment to understand what's going on there, whether they are.

someone at the most senior levels of our business or someone who has just started in our customer care team fresh out of university. Everyone is encouraged to go and play and that has spawned changes in how we do things in our business. We run our management meetings. We used to sit for four or five hours once a month, every member of the management team along with the executive leadership team discussing what had happened, what was going on and briefly we'd cover off on what we're going to do next.

Since we brought that in-house, we experimented with different tools. Notebook LM was a great one. We now actually submit templated results beforehand. That's then converted into a video that we all sit and watch together, an AI-based video. We spend 10, 15, 20 minutes, half an hour discussing what has happened and spend the next three hours discussing why did that happen? What can we do next? How can we collaborate together? So it turned it all in its head.

Ian Jindal (30:58.562)
No.

Ian Jindal (31:10.039)
Wow.

Stephen Dewar (31:11.925)
purely from people spending time experimenting with different tools.

Ian Jindal (31:16.066)
That's amazing!

Stephen Dewar (31:17.839)
it's great. It's really, really good.

Ian Jindal (31:19.892)
I love that idea. But typically I'm now thinking about how you can replace key people with different avatars and, you know, could it be delivered by cats, for example. So always going to keep the fun side of that. That's really interesting. So I'm really impressed with that. And thank you for sharing that. So, look, you're going to be in our closing Think Tank session.

looking at strategy AI and how it's changing the enterprise. So just as we come to the end of our time, it'll be good just to get your, I don't spoil the surprise, but your high level view on what AI is doing to either enterprise or stakeholder value. How can the business use this to either change its business model or enhance the business model?

So it's not just window dressing or lipstick on a pig. Where's the real change to stakeholder value?

Stephen Dewar (32:25.985)
I think this falls into probably three categories. You've got efficiencies, opportunities and innovations. Efficiencies, simply put, any business can look around and go, there are tasks through which that we have to do that are currently very, very manual. They still need done. They're still very important, but actually the people doing them, their time is much more valuable than that. AI will help enable those, help solve some of those problems. That's the efficiencies.

Opportunities is understanding as customers, depending whether what industry you're in, what business you're in, as AI starts to change the shopping behaviors, it could present new opportunities to emerge into new segments. It lowers the barriers to entry into different segments. There's a huge opportunity for businesses across the world to be able to step up and do new things, which leads you directly into innovation.

Being able to step back and say, I can see an opportunity for something I want to do. It would be amazing if this could do this, but I don't have the technical skills to do it. AI now bridges that gap. You're taking the creative, you can take the creative minds who can't code and give them the ability to build what's in their dreams. That's something that truly drives innovation. And that's, that's agnostic regardless of sector, industry.

Ian Jindal (33:46.55)
Yes.

Stephen Dewar (33:52.961)
Specialism, anything.

Ian Jindal (33:54.488)
And also comes back to your communication skills because you have to be able to communicate the idea, but also communicate it in a coding efficient way, even if you're not in a code. So in a way that we'll have people who are fluent in different registers of speech as well as, you know, in using different LLMs. So Stephen, thank you so much for that. What an interesting conversation. And dear listener, if when you look at your

Stephen Dewar (34:15.358)
Exactly.

Ian Jindal (34:24.27)
lovely calendar, you're thinking, it's not yet the 3rd of June, then you are in plenty of time to go to RetailX.events and get your ticket to join us at Commerce AI in London. If you're not in London, can't make it, or in fact, this is after the 3rd of June, then you've just spent half an hour realizing what you missed at our event. And just as well, we recorded this. So, Steve, I'm looking forward to speaking with you in real life.

at the event, but for now, a massive thank you for joining us in the studio and just sharing with us such a lucid insight to how AI is impacting on black circles. Thank you so much.

Stephen Dewar (35:07.553)
Thank you for having me.